- April 26, 2024
- Posted by: legaleseblogger
- Category: Related News
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## Striving for Inclusivity in Financial Advice Communities
Can we not gatekeep this community? This should be a place that offers the best financial advice from the perspective of those who feel they are middle class. I feel like most comments around here are trying to exclude the upper middle class, grousing about how a high salary couldn’t possibly be considered middle class.
Newsflash those high incomes, albeit affording very comfortable lifestyles, are households that have more in common with the middle class than upper class depending on age, family size, location, and net worth.
Now, if you feel threatened that more affluent posters are in this sub, then that’s on you and you should honestly ask yourself why you feel that way. Comparison/envy is the thief of joy.
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****** just grabbed a
There’s a lot of humble brags in here, plus this sub isn’t a great place for financial advice. There’s lot of financially irresponsible comments with tons of upvotes.
I think this sub was created because some people clearly don’t fit in r/povertyfinance anymore, while not awash with money like those in r/personalfinance.
The middle class is still the largest class, and for the sake of the country I hope it remains that way. It’s steadily shrinking; there are more rich and poor people today than a couple of decades ago.
Do you know what the difference is between a millionaire and a billionaire? About a billion dollars.
We only recently became HENRY in 2022. I don’t post my SankeyMATIC charts here or ask for advice, but I do try to comment if someone is asking about career advice from my field (computer science or aerospace) or financial advice. Honestly, most people should head over to r/personalfinance and r/financialindependence then follow the order of investing in those accounts buying VOO/VTI and not chasing individual stocks.
My comment from the other post:
Not everyone calling people out is doing so from a place of being less affluent. I find something oddly gross about people making 15-20k or so a month before taxes asking for budgeting help from people making 5-10k a month (or less). Especially when they are already doing things like 401k/backdoor Roths.
Would the answer be to simply change the name of the sub to r/imakebetween60and180kclass. I think that’s going to be the only way to curb this constant debate. Otherwise your post will go poof and by 9am all will be forgotten and there will be a new post from someone making 200k and the debate will begin again.
its not about income, its about wealth. I don’t care if you only book $50k/year, if you make that on rent because you own 5 million in real estate, you’re an owner, not a worker. a high paying job isn’t generational wealth.
Fully agree with you. My HHI is $164k, and despite the comments saying I don’t belong, the posts I see here resonate with me wayyyyy more than the r/HENRYfinance ones.
I think the problem is that there isn’t a “upper middle/lower high” class sub.
You have PovertyF <45K and then straight to HENRY which is like 300k+ with middle classF being the catch all for in between.
Also you need to remember “middle class” was about the things you could buy not the amount of income.
Buying a 3 bedroom in NY will make a 200k HH feel squarely middle class but moving will surely mean a drop in salary.
TL:DR adding an extra ‘0’ to the end of your income doesn’t matter if an extra ‘0’ is involuntarily added to all your expenses.
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I think gate keeping is OK. Everyone thinks they are middle class even with $400k/year. Those people piss me off. They have no idea about the stress most Americans are under.
Here’s a good starting metric (though there is no net worth analysis):
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/
Not gonna lie I really think actual middle income earners just need a separate sub at this point. It’s obvious people are never gonna agree 100% on what middle class is/isn’t but these days I see nothing but posts from individuals making well north of $100k and that’s simply not useful or relevant to me. Not to mention how insanely condescending some folks here can be. I joined hoping to get useful financial advice for someone in my position, but basically no one who makes $50-70k posts anymore. Or when they do they get told by the high earners that they’re basically in poverty 🙄.
The people who come here do so because they consider themselves middle class. When they see people who don’t appear to be comparable to them financially, they don’t think of them as middle class. It shouldn’t be all that surprising. You have to understand it’s difficult to consider yourself to be in the same class as someone who is putting more after tax money into savings in a year than you are earning in a year before taxes. Newsflash, the six figure income often has less in common with the five than you seem to think.
This sub should be renamed /r/UpperMiddleClass and another created called /r/LowerMiddleClass
Part of the problem is that people with high incomes tend to suffer from lifestyle creep. A lifestyle that people with lower incomes can’t relate to, thus giving the impression you don’t belong in this sub. I personally think theirs truth to that.
As someone who grew up poor (not middle class, but actually broke) who now makes $250K/year, I think a lot of folks don’t understand how much those incomes have in common. I understand the reaction that these are totally different income levels and those making six figures have it easy, but it isn’t always the case.
First, I pay an extraordinary amount in taxes. Sometimes, over half of that goes to taxes. I don’t qualify for many tax breaks that go to those earning less. I never got a stimulus check.
Second, high-earners often have to live in extremely expensive areas to have those jobs. Everything is massively expensive in VHCOL areas.
Third, high-earners often have huge student loans. I just finished paying off $300K in student loans. It is a massive expense to manage that eats up a lot of the buffer.
Fourth, in order to make that income, high-earners often have to move away from family and friends to very expensive areas. I had to spend many years with no support network. That meant I had to pay for everything I needed with no help (often at an exorbitant rate). I have had no grandparents nearby, so I have had to pay $2K/kid for daycare.
Fifth, when you are at that income level, lifestyle creep can be real. All your coworkers spend a ton on stupid shit. So I like to come to this subreddit to ask how people actually budget normally. It’s like I’ve forgotten. I’m not bragging when I ask for help.
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When someone posts here saying they make 300k and pew research says that someone living in LA California making 200k is upper class, they make 100k more than the bar to entry. They’re upper class bud. Sorry to hurt your snowflake heart but they don’t live the same life as someone making 60k household in bumfuck Kansas which is without a doubt middle class.
For what it’s worth – these types of fights are what the politicians and the billionaires love. A bunch of people that rely on a paycheck to live fighting amongst each other.
Why are you projecting motivations onto people that have a preference for a community they are a part of?
What is even the point of having separate communities online if they do not have some amount of definition or structure?
I make a $950k/year and am really struggling to make ends meet. I only have $7 million in my retirement. Can you guys look at my budget and tell me if I’m spending too much on entertainment and eating out?
/s
I mean in fairness.
I keep getting suggested this subreddit and I’m not fucking middle class so maybe yell at Reddit for being stupid.
>This should be a place that offers the best financial advice from the perspective of those who feel they are middle class.
Wait, there’s supposed to be *advice* in this sub?
That other day someone asked about budgeting for his 132k a year “middle class income”. Afaik, he didn’t give a response to “was this like downtown San Francisco?” because that makes far more sense and would legitimately classify him as upper middle class there.
But if it was like Mississippi….I would be so mad one of those CEO-types tried calling rich = middle class.
Pew Research defines middle class as 2/3-2x of median income
for my Bay Area county that would be $90,000-280,000 for the family of two and $115,000-350,000 for the family of 4. I’m sure New York, LA and maybe Seattle are not far off.
the problem is that middle America folks on this sub lose their shit when you suggest that you can be poor on 6 figures and not even close to HENRY on $250k.
Yes, that does sound like a lot of money, but families in this income bracket who are paying mortgage and daycare in the Bay Area are very much concerned with normal middle class things like paying the auto loan on the their Rav4, building up emergency fund, funding retirement, balancing groceries against eating out and yes maybe even saving on the proverbial avocado toast to book their annual vacation.
Cost of living matters, numbers are just numbers, what defines middle class for the purposes of this sub are shared financial challenges and objectives, get over it
You need a hobby or something if you’re really getting upset that people with 1/4 of your salary don’t want to give you financial advice lol. Find somewhere else to brag.
Make ur own sub @ upper middle class ❤️
I’m sorry but if you make 200k and consider yourself middle class that makes you bad with money
That’s not “gate keeping”, it’s correctly diagnosing the problem.
You should be redirected to r/daveramsey instead imo
I agree with you, OP.
I know there are technical definitions of what “middle class” is, but with the COL outpacing inflation they seem kind of antiquated.
My wife and I make 240ish in a LCOL. I get that we are doing well, and doing better than most, but we aren’t “rich”. A lot of our earnings get eaten up by taxes. We have a lot more in common with the people who are technically “middle class” than we do rich people.
I think the root of the problem is that “upper class” is too broad. The top of our “three tiered” approach somehow includes me and Jeff Bezos.
Maybe Henry is the right place for me, and I’ll check that out, but I don’t really feel like a ” high earner”. Doctors, small business owners, etc. meet that definition. I feel like I’m in financial no man’s land
I’m a firm believer in the working class / upper class model. If you have to work, you’re working class. If you have enough resources that you could never work another day in your life and you’re not on a fight budget, you’re upper class.
So if someone makes $400k but their COL is $350k, they’re workers to me
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People confuse broke middle class = poor. It’s not hard to look up what the basic income would need to be to support themselves and their families by zip code. Make below this and I consider that poor. Make more than that and it starts moving from lower to middle class etc. It’s hard to argue about exactly income from different regions. Obviously everyone has different opportunities, we don’t live in a bubble. For example, if someone inherits a home and they have very low taxes and insurance, they are going to have much more disposable income than someone that makes the same amount of money. In the real world we aren’t all on the same playing field. One high income person could have high debts because they had to pay for everything and their coworker might already be worth more because his family paid for everything.
Added to all this is what was considered a great income 5 years ago, may not be considered that great now. Inflation has really made the lifestyle of someone already established way different than someone starting out. Money just doesn’t go as far anymore.
My income is quite high (on that number alone, with no context I would consider it upper middle for my MCOL area) but it is nuanced. A good deal is derived from rental incomes. Three mortgages and associated upkeep is hella expensive so my “take home income” brings me to a more middle class status.
There isn’t a single good answer to this question anyways. My wife and I make good money, but we live in a VHCOL area and definitely can’t afford a house around here. So what does that make us? My definition of middle class is that you can comfortably afford a house, two cars, a child, and one or two vacations a year. Using that definition, the American middle class is very rapidly disappearing.
Would just like to say, I learned a new word “grousing”! Reddit teaches me so much
Way too many DINKs making $250k complaining about not being able to max out their 401ks, lease a new Tesla, AND go to Hawaii twice in one year.
Hate to break it to you, but you are rich. Not wealthy, but rich.